catspaw

I've newly watched this ep again, and it's reminded me how odd it seems. Specifically Jack's comment, 'Over my rotting corpse'. That seems so out of character, so out of left field, to me it makes me pull up short every time I watch the ep.

So, SG peeps. What's your take on this? I can come up with a couple of reasons why this line might exist at a stretch, but no matter how hard I try to justify it, I always come down to one thing: lazy writing to set up the conflict later in the ep.

Open to any and all interpretations :-)

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From:

paian

I always got the impression that Jack was supposed to be a child of the Cold War, with an ingrained antipathy towards the Russian military. I'm not sure if it was shown before 'The Tomb' -- maybe in 'Small Victories' or 'Watergate'? Or if it was even established well enough in previous eps to justify the rancor in that line. Or is it his turn of phrase that's ringing false to you, not that he's talking about a Russian operative?

Kinda begs for a pre-series fic going back to some unpleasant run-in he had with the Russian military in his black-ops days -- something to explain it being bitter and personal.

From:

ivorygates

In "Operation East Fly" in 1982, O'Neill's team was supposed to be picking up a Russian double agent, weren't they? And it was a trap, and all or most of his team was killed. That might do it.

From:

catspaw

I definitely need to watch 'Gamekeeper' again.

From:

ivorygates

I like that ep a lot. Me too.

From:

paian

D'oh -- East Fly, of course! Definite grist for the data mill.

From:

catspaw

Or is it his turn of phrase that's ringing false to you, not that he's talking about a Russian operative?

I need to watch both 'Small Victories' and 'Watergate' again to check, I suspect. But really,I think it's both the above things that ring false. In canon, if Jack was to show antipathy to anyone with that level of bitterness, I would have thought it would have been to an East German after the disastrous mission there ('Gamekeeper') although I can see why the writers fought shy of that one *g*.

It's possible that I might be Europeanising here, that there's some kind of cultural shorthand that I'm missing: I am a child of the Cold War myself and I really don't recall that level of antipathy towards the Communist Bloc over here. Distrust and suspicion, yes, but not quite this level of outright hostility somehow, not even during Bay of Pigs. The atmosphere might well have been much more radically 'anti' in the States though (I imagine having ICBMs trained specifically on you, and no reason to think they wouldn't be used, has a quite remarkable effect in hardening attitudes) and this would likely have been intensified in anyone in the military, even in someone joinging years after events.

So yeah, I can find reasons for this reaction - they just don't seem terribly convincing in the context of Jack.

From:

ivorygates

Remember, also that this is JUST AFTER DANIEL GOES GLOWY. The Russians Jack is so very thoroughly objecting to are the ones who are going to join SG1 and take Daniel's place. So he may be more vehement than usual, yeah.

While that level of anti-Russian sentiment rings odd by the 1990s, it was very common here in the US in the 1950s up through the early 1970s. Jack isn't that much older than I am, but older enough that he would have gotten more of it (frex, he'd clearly remember the Cuban Missile Crisis, while I pretty much don't). "Better Dead Than Red." "Are You Now Or Have You Ever Been A Member Of The Communist Party?" Khrushchev shouting "We will bury you!"

No American my age does *not* know how long it would take the ICBMs to make it over the Pole and trip the DEWline, or what Strike Zone they live in (I am proud to say I have always lived in a First Strike Zone...) We did atomic bomb drills in school while I was in first and second grade: my school was near Livermore Labs...

Ah, the joys of the Cold War.

From:

catspaw

Thanks, it's starting to make a bit more sense now: I thought I had to be missing *something* in the cultural frame of reference. And while intellectually one *knows* attitudes were different, that's a lot different to *living* it.

We did atomic bomb drills in school while I was in first and second grade

And there's that difference, right there: you got bomb drills, we got 'Protect and Survive', which involved emulsion paint and sheltering under kitchen tables in the absence of a fallout shelter, IIRC.

Edited Date: 2014-07-05 04:12 pm (UTC)

From:

ivorygates

Yep! (What's "emulsion paint"?)

Of course, "duck and cover" wouldn't save anybody from an A-bomb. I think the idea was to save us all from flash-blindness and the broken glass of the shockwave (because of course it was a 60s school, and so mostly glass).

So while I'm not entirely sure Jack would hold on to that level of anti-Soviet paranoia that far into his adult life, he would certainly have grown up with that...

From:

catspaw

I had to go look it up...

Latex paint, apparently.

I didn't realise it was called anything different over there, sorry!

Edited Date: 2014-07-06 05:13 am (UTC)

From:

ivorygates

NP! [So I can come to you if I have to Britify something? ;) ]

...is the idea *really* that *paint* is going to save you from atomic radiation...?

From:

catspaw

So I can come to you if I have to Britify something?

But of course! :-D And if I need to Yankify something...? *g*

I think the paint might have been equivalent to the 'cover' part of Duck and Cover. i.e. to save your eyes from the flash. But the idea that given, what, 30 minutes warning? Less, maybe, seeing we were so close to the then USSR - anyone was going to have a) the sense and b) the time to paint all their windows with emulsion, then collect together tables and doors to make a rough shelter in the middle of their house and stockpile food and water there enough for 48 hours was, frankly, ridiculous. I remember much derision at the time.

Bad government, bad. No biscuit.

From:

ivorygates

And if I need to Yankify something...? *g*

I am at your disposal! [I really don't like the fact that the most common fannish form is "deBrit"; of course, it's a harkback formation to "debride" both of which have the connotation of removing something unwanted or unnecessary, but, I dunno, it implies that American usage is the Universal Default, or something. Which, um, NO.]

So, er, any time you need me to, ah, give you a Yank.... ;)

From:

catspaw

LOL!

From:

paian

What IG said ... and emotions would definitely have run higher in the military than in the civilian population, right through the 1970s, which would have been a formative time for Jack professionally. 'Gamekeeper,' 'Matter of Time,' and 'Evolution' suggest that he operated in theatres where the U.S. and the Soviets were at odds, and a guy in black ops could have racked up a lot of grudges.

I was thinking in terms of what was clearly stated in canon, though, and I definitely get what you're saying -- I'm not sure that line is fully supported. It might even be undermined by 'The Tomb' and 'Watergate.'

From:

ivorygates

I think the scriptwriter (Cooper) was going for humor by exaggeration ("rotting corpse"="dead body"), but the line really falls flat. It isn't Jack, regardless of the vehemence of his feelings.

HAMMOND
Colonel Checkov feels that as a symbol of our joint efforts, a Russian officer should be assigned to join SG-1.

O'NEILL
Over my rotting corpse, Sir.

HAMMOND
Colonel…

O'NEILL
I'm sorry, did I say that out loud?

Now. Replace "rotting corpse" with "dead body", and the exchange doesn't clank nearly as much...